Wednesday, September 23, 2009

ET Recommends - 32: Pens (the immediate fallout)



All of the following is taken from responses to a link on Stevie Chick's Facebook page, linking to my previous blog entry on the mighty Pens. (If you're one of the participants and object to your words being appropriated here, please let me know.)
Stevie Chick


Stevie Chick can't believe this needed to be stated again, in 2009, but glad ET stated it so well

Source: everetttrue2.blogspot.com
Bangs wept, but this band have justbeen lifted from the realms of the merely great (which anyone can be) to being the coolest in the UK!How so?They've just been afforded a badreview in Pitchfork! Fuck, but I'm jealous. ...




3 hours ago ·  ·  · Share · Report

Rae Alexandra
Rae Alexandra
I like 'em... I do... And I'm really sodding sick of "Eugh! Girls can't play! Girls can't play!" bullshit. If they were dudes there'd be no complaints. God, I miss the 90s sometimes... I am officially OLD. :-)
2 hours ago
Everett True
Everett True
damn straight. (the bit about the "girls can't play" crap)
2 hours ago · Delete
Helen Taylor
Helen Taylor
cockles = warmed
2 hours ago
Scott Stewart
Scott Stewart
doesn't everyone accept that girls can play nowadays?
2 hours ago
Frances Morgan
Frances Morgan
Overheard at a gig just after Vivian Girls' first UK tour:
Indie boy 1: So yeah, I saw Vivian Girls last night, they're basically like monkeys playing instruments...
Indie boy 2: But yeah, like, attractive monkeys!
[laughter]

Sigh.

But. I have to say, ET, playing sort of devil's advocate for a minute here, I'm equally suspicious of the equation of technical proficiency with all that's bad in music. And to equate DIY with gospel the way you do in your post...I know what you're saying, I think, but I reckon you have to be pretty fuckin 'good' to cut it as a gospel singer. Equally, a lot of 60s pop and soul was played by professional, jobbing, practice-8-hours-a-day musicians - how else do you think it was recorded so fast, and sounded so good? The relationship between craft and imagination isn't as straightforward as either you or Mr Pitchfork seem to be be suggesting here. You like Marnie Stern, right? And Bjork?

Pens are great though, agreed.

2 hours ago
Scott Stewart
Scott Stewart
the most technically proficient bands are generally the least exciting, right? i'm sure vivian girls aren't under the delusion that they're the greatest musicians on earth, but they sound great together. think that's the only thing that matters.
about an hour ago
Frances Morgan
Frances Morgan
Well, no, not necessarily - you think James Brown's band was unexciting? You think Diamanda Galas would be better if she didn't practice? A lot of music I love is made by people whom Pitchfork would say 'can't play' - and here that criticism being used, as it often is, to justify sexism and exclusionism, IMO - but I also think DIY can be a massively limiting worldview. And limited, ie limited to a very narrow experience of music.
about an hour ago
Frances Morgan
Frances Morgan
But I agree, Scott, that the important thing is how a band sounds together - that indefinable sound of cohesion, which has very little to do with technique.
about an hour ago
Everett True
Everett True
no, of course I agree with you Frances. I have nothing against bands that can play their instruments - far from it, some of my best friends are musicians! It's just that I'm immensely suspicious of anyone who uses the tired refrain "they can't play" as a put-down of musicians (and, more often than not, female musicians).

Slim Moon actually argues this point very eloquently in my Nirvana book - about how folk would slag off Beat Happening for not being able to play, but the selfsame folk would think Blood Circus (say) were fine, despite the fact both bands were equally lacking in (perceived) technical ability. But Blood Circus played a more traditional form of rock music so that was OK. Apparently.
about an hour ago · Delete
Mischa Pearlman
Mischa Pearlman
there's a difference between not being able to play and being good at not being able to play. i'm sure i'm in the minority here, but i don't think these girls do it very well. and while the review in question was far from great, there is a degree of validity to it, however sloppily phrased parts of it may be.
about an hour ago
Scott Stewart
Scott Stewart
well, James Brown is absolutely not my thing, but yes it was probably exciting. I certainly wouldn't say anyone would be better if they tried to be bad.. i don't really understand the pitchfork hate when they champion so many bands with female members. one journalist gave pens a bad review, but far from their worst reviews. surely he's entitled to an honest opinion and not liking a pens record doesn't make him sexist? i don't know the guy, or anyone at pitchfork btw. and i quite like pens.
about an hour ago
Everett True
Everett True
Um, Scott? It's quite possible to give an honest opinion and still be sexist.
about an hour ago · Delete
Everett True
Everett True
The criticism NEVER gets levelled at all-dude bands. Don't know why, but it doesn't. Not the fault of yr individual lazy-ass male Pitchfork critic here, of course, but - well. There it is.
about an hour ago · Delete
Stevie Chick
Stevie Chick
i just think that describing the way bands like pens and vivian girls play as "bad" is incredibly closed-minded and dullardish - its more they play within a style and aesthetic that's more after a feeling in the way they play and sound, than any self-conscious complexity. they've made a creative choice, and while some might not like it, to set it down as some aesthetic binary - they play "bad" - seems to be missing the point to a vast degree.

but i think its pretty clear also that some critics start to get more het up about musical "ability" when its a woman playing... meg white gets slated by drum nerds all the time, because her style is very spare, but there's a groove to the way she plays, the notes she chooses and the timing and emphasis with which she plays that again is an entirely aesthetic choice, and one which, to my ears, is just as distinctive in their music and crucial to their sound as the way Jack plays guitar.

about an hour ago
Scott Stewart
Scott Stewart
absolutely. i just don't know from that review that he is. and i know nothing else about the guy. i'll have to look at the review again, but i certainly didn't think he was suggesting that girls can't play music. i do enjoy this topic though. always a good debate. and never-ending. if people believe that, they are idiots and they won't change their minds and it has nothing to do with music really.
about an hour ago
Stevie Chick
Stevie Chick
but meg gets slated because she's a girl, and there is a sexist mindset that still prevails, like Flat Earth Theories, that girls "can't" play as well as boys. and groups like pens and vivian girls, whose charm lies in the lackadaisical approach to their music, set off alarm bells in such twattish critics.
about an hour ago
Stevie Chick
Stevie Chick
in closing, its not about "good" or "bad" playing, but aesthetic choices. like frances said, a group like the JBs were so great in part because their fearsome musical ability enable them to create such exacting and perfect grooves. that 1968 "say it loud in dallas" live album is so dazzling because of their fluid and brilliant instrumental skills. but a group like pens are great in part beacause of the way *they play, the character and charm of their chaotic pop and din-driven guitars and keyboards and harmonies. that's their aesthetic choice, and i'm glad they chose it.
about an hour ago
Scott Stewart
Scott Stewart
i think we're all in agreement here. for some reason i've ended up defending someone i don't know (happens regularly...) - i'm definitely going to have to read that review again.. if he's reviewing a band purely on their technical ability as musicians, he's really writing for the wrong website...
about an hour ago
Frances Morgan
Frances Morgan
Sure, not liking a record by women doesn't make him sexist. I personally don't really like Vivian Girls a whole lot. But the 'they can't play' criticism is often applied to female musicians in a very specific way that, if you're a female musician, you become very aware of. I've seen any amount of male musicians on the DIY scene who 'can't play' for shit, but they do so with a very different attitude and to a very different response.

I think what Everett's getting at is that the standard by which good musicianship is being judged here is not some kind of universal, impartial one; it's a very specific one that does often exclude people who don't seem to fit it.

about an hour ago
Stevie Chick
Stevie Chick
yeah. i mean the crux seems, if you're applying "you are not of classical piano grade 6" type rules to such music, the guy clearly doesn't understand pop.
about an hour ago
Everett True
Everett True
hey Stevie, is it ok to paste this on to my blog entry, in the comments section?
about an hour ago · Delete
Scott Stewart
Scott Stewart
i can't even start to list the bands with relatively horrible musicianship that i adore, regardless of gender, and i know it's the same for all of us. i have to assume that as a music jounalist the guy loves music enough to feel the same way.
about an hour ago
Scott Stewart
Scott Stewart
jounalist? perfect timing for a typo there...
about an hour ago
Stevie Chick
Stevie Chick
of course ET
about an hour ago
Frances Morgan
Frances Morgan
Stevie - what you were saying about aesthetic choices is OTM, and I think where sexism can come into this is that some men can't quite understand that female musicians are making those choices; it's as if they'd rather believe that the woman onstage is just playing in the only way she can and of course if she just put her mind to it or whatever she'd be as 'good' as her male peers, not that she plays that way because *that's what she wants to do*. I think that respect regarding aesthetic choice is afforded more frequently to men than it is to women.

I've had men good-naturedly give me 'advice' after gigs (which I don't think they'd do to other men) about things that, to my ears, are good things, integral to the band I was in at the time. And it's only happened when I've played in all-female groups. For the record, yes I 'can play' my instrument(s).

49 minutes ago
Stevie Chick
Stevie Chick
"I think where sexism can come into this is that some men can't quite understand that female musicians are making those choices; it's as if they'd rather believe that the woman onstage is just playing in the only way she can and of course if she just put her mind to it or whatever she... Read More'd be as 'good' as her male peers, not that she plays that way because *that's what she wants to do*."

exactly, frances... totally agree.
41 minutes ago
Amy Prior
Amy Prior
Wow this thread is amazing...what do the girls from Pens think?
41 minutes ago
Helen Taylor
Helen Taylor
A single Pen view: glad it's engendered some intelligent discussion on subjects very close to my heart!
31 minutes ago

7 comments:

  1. 'but hey, that's what you get when even the band name is a dick joke'

    'Pens', a penis joke? sounds like poor old zach might feel a bit insecure in a stationary shop.

    and there touring with the slits next month! that'll get him even more excited.

    its quite childish that zach would assume 'pens' is a penis joke. if he knows that they've done artwork for Wavves, is it not more likely the name has something to do with illustration?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Whatever argument the bitchfork idiot was positing revolves around how one defines playing, an instrument, badly and well. I can't "play" guitar. I can't "sing" either. But I have always found my guitar, my voice and my sharp tongue to be very effective instruments for terrorizing douche bags like that. Playing badly or well doesn't interest me. I love 3 songs on the Pens record. That's about average for me whether were talking the stones or the fall.

    ReplyDelete
  3. ET, as you stated in your initial post, I think the heart of the matter is how (or why) such a weak review made it through PF's editorial staff to publication. That's still the story for my money.

    Describing technical ability and how it’s applied would be great criticism if there was any meaningful way to do it. I can’t do it. No one wants to read musicology in a record review anyway?

    Almost all the time, that sort of commentary is completely inane. What that writer said about Pens being unable to play is about as helpful to the reader as saying ‘This band has hair.’ So it’s inclusion, really is about being a wink-wink sexist douche bag. Or just a fucking dumb kid/man-child who hasn't been schooled in music history (or life) and thus has no place criticising anything.

    Last time I checked, PF held itself in much higher regard than that.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I don't know. Do they hold themselves in higher regard than that?

    The trap for any magazine/website that has now been going as long as Pitchfork has, and is so highly regarded, is that it starts to believe its own praise. And starts believing it's above the criteria that applies to everyone else.

    Pitchfork has long been a commercial concern. There's nothing wrong with that, of course - except, a) it presents itself differently to its audience (and who can blame them?) and b) it's clearly starting to impact upon editorial policy.

    Simply: when it started, Pitchfork was an alternative to the establishment. Now it is the establishment. And the establishment is ALWAYS worth bringing down.

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  5. ...or, at the very least, close examination.

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  6. saw them at the Cargo with Times New Viking and Male Bonding last night and loved all three of them. pound for pound my favourite show of the year

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  7. Hey Everett,

    Don't forget you always used to call Help She Can't Swim "Help She Can't Sing".

    Best,
    G

    ReplyDelete