Lifted from the Bikini Kill blog.
slim moon Says:
February 11, 2010 at 1:54 am
when bikini kill was touring the uk wth huggy bear in 1993, nels bernstein, who was the publicist for sub pop back then, sent a fax on sub pop stationary to most of the rock journalists and editors in the UK, strenuously and obnoxiously arguing that nobody would care about Bikini Kill if they were all men, and that they were getting their publicity “for free” which was confusing, because it gave the impression that sub pop must only get publicity by paying for it. It was also really confusing why he felt so strongly about this that he’d try to talk editors and writers into ignoring BK and stop writing about them, which was what he was asking them to to do. Like some kind of bizarro-world anti-publicist, he had taken it upon himself to use his skills and contacts as a successful press agent to try to reduce the press attention that BK received. Does anybody who is reading this have a copy of his fax, i’d love to see it word for word again after all these years.
------------------------------------
(I wondered aloud on the Bikini Kill blog whether this was simply Nils' skewed idea of a joke: probably not, but Sub Pop were in the business of totally winding folk up back then. It sounds sadly correct, from what I recall - odd, then, that Sub Pop boss Bruce Pavitt was simultaneously trying to sign BK tour-mates Huggy Bear without even having heard them. For what it's worth, my two favourite Bikini Kill songs are 'Rebel Girl' and 'R.I.P.', and I would like to take this opportunity to unreservedly apologise for asking that piece-of-shit careerist US journalist to interview Kathleen for their one mainstream UK press feature. Of course I should have done it: but I didn't want them tainted by association. My main BK memory is a lengthy chat I had with Kathleen Hanna in about '94 at the Capitol Theatre, Olympia - where neither of us recognised the other. I still like the cassette tape best of all, but then I would say that, wouldn't I? I obtained it via Calvin Johnson's K Records' distribution service, not from Courtney Love, as been claimed elsewhere. But really, it was the very early Riot Grrrl fanzines that kicked my ass, even more than the music. There was such passion and information and a new way of seeing within them.)
P.S. To the best of my knowledge, Nils was also president of the Nirvana fan club during this period. I wonder how that fits in?
P.P.S. I'm not saying that you should praise a band for being female. Just that you should be very wary indeed if they're male.
P.P.P.S. Just received an email from Nils, which he has kindly consented to let me run here. What he says certainly rings true .
Hiya
Trying to stay out of this remarkably irrelevant high school bk/hb/fax/discussion/fray, but a couple things on your site... I was never the president of a Nirvana fan club; I got their mail since their mailbox was in Seattle & they didn't live there, and there was no fan club.
'Sadly correct' - not sure why it's so sad that I would yammer carelessly about my thoughts about music in the course of dealing with journalists about Sub Pop music - better if I adhered to party lines and ignored anything not on Sub Pop?! I have no doubt my thoughts were poorly elucidated in said mystery fax, but I always sent crazy faxes about all kinds of things, as I'm sure you remember.
But yes, I had massive beefs with Riot Grrrl, the hypocrisy and oppression of which wasn't something a journalist doing a quickie piece would pick up on. Thought bands like Mecca Normal, Scrawl, Antietam, Fire Party, not to mention the hundreds of 'women in punk' that came before, warranted more media attention from MUSIC journos than a social movement that I only later realized had tons of value and excitement (even thought most journalists' approach to it was quite patronizing), and while it was frustrating to be met with blank stares & scoffs from the RG elite when trying to talk about Lora Logic or Leonora O'Reilly, such is youth.
Hope all's well w/you
Nils
It seems worthy of mention here that my girlfriends and I were obsessed with Mecca Normal, Scrawl, Fire Party, Babes In Toyland, L7, Dickless, Sylvia Juncosa, Kira, Jawbox, Calamity Jane and pretty much any band that had women in it. The reason we started our fanzine Girl Germs (inspired by Jigsaw, Chainsaw, Sister Nobody among many others) was to write about any band with girls in it we could learn about and try to share that information with other people and really anyone else who was interested. For me personally, that was the whole point. But it was certainly sexier for journalists to write about punk rock man haters than that...
ReplyDeleteand we all know who the real man-haters are, right jerry?! HINT: it's not molly or me! xox o tobi
ReplyDeleteActually, I prefer to think of myself as a misanthrope.
ReplyDeletethat is often how misogyny is contextualized (and hence justified) example: country teasers lyric "I hate wo-men and I hate men"...great line, great band...but you get my drift? if not, read some Nietzsche or pick up a nihilistic punk fanzine from yr local distro
ReplyDeleteanyhow, thanks molly for your comment...this whole fax thing is really starting some good conversations on fb from some of the OG RG's so at least that is positive. I also think it's good to document the haters along with the fans...so I guess we have to thank Nils for his comment here too.
As for high school, well we are documenting our youth, that is how this came up. Not as some kind of exercise in drama, but as a feminist history project.
xo
Tobi
The bit where the Nils says he'd tell riot grrrls about Lora Logic, only to be met with 'blank stares' is kind of funny. Maybe the problem wasn't with Lora Logic - who, in my experience, most female musicians agree is extremely rad & inspirational - but with being told (by a man) that what you're doing has been done before? Perhaps it has, but that's never stopped men from starting bands.
ReplyDeleteI can see what he's saying - that RG was in some ways part of a continuum and that should be acknowledged - and personally I'm really inclined towards that historical way of thinking, but it's this air of advice-giving that I imagine met with the blank stares, not the idea that there was such a continuum, or that one should listen to Essential Logic.
It struck me as a particularly odd remark, given that every night after our shows we would make lists for girls of bands that had come before like this: Delta 5, The Au Pairs, Essential Logic, The Raincoats, The Slits, Castration Squad, Sex Sick, The Wrecks, ASF, Flowers for Funerals, Rain Shadow, The Boremen, Sadonation, The Neo Boys, The Avengers, The Bags, X Ray Spex, The Pandoras, The Calamities, Yoko Ono, Jeri Rossi etc etc etc
ReplyDelete(from Facebook)
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that you should praise a band for being female. Just that you should be very wary if they're male.
12 February at 11:24 · Comment · Like
Eileen Rose, Sarah Titmuss, Tamsin Chapman and 3 others like this.
Tobi Vail
the real man-haters I know are all male. what does that mean? oh and they RARELY if EVER are defined by it. as in "ET, the man-hating taste maker critic" !
12 February at 11:26 ·
Nathan Howdeshell
male self-haters.
12 February at 11:39 ·
Tobi Vail
star bellied boys
12 February at 11:44 ·
Everett True
I'd fucking love to be called "ET, the man-hating taste maker critic"! By the way, Tobi - I pasted my BK anecdote on my blog. Do you want me to post it over on the BK blog too?
12 February at 11:46 ·
Tobi Vail
sure! now we have to find this fax...I wonder what it says! I just remember that whole time period as being really combative.
12 February at 11:51 ·
Everett True
yeah totally. I would walk into the MM offices and have about six people immediately screaming abuse at me. Literally. And all cos of Riot Grrrl.
12 February at 11:52 ·
Nathan Howdeshell
so curious about that fax..the racist version of that happened between Alternative Press and that band STIFFED (santogolds punk band)
12 February at 11:54 ·
Everett True
Nils was also president of the Nirvana fan club at the time, I believe.
12 February at 12:01 ·
Caren Faisst
how ironic
12 February at 12:21 ·
Laurie Henzel
thats a crazy story!
12 February at 12:23 ·
Mike Wolf
I once had an editor put the kaibosh on me describing several dozen bands (in the same issue's listings section) as being "all-male" in terms of lineup. I realized my mistake was in ID'ing too many bands that way, because I later slipped through the filter by doing it with just a handful per issue. I dunno, every band that's staffed solely by women seems to get it every time, everywhere, so why not the fellows too? It wasn't a quality call -- some were good, some bad, and most, of course, were somewhere in between.
12 February at 13:07 ·
Tobi Vail
By the way I don't hold gruNdges...or is that grrruNdges?
12 February at 14:04 ·
Nathan Howdeshell
grundge! genius!
12 February at 17:29 ·
Bill Karren
there was so much animosity towards bikini kill. it's hard to imagine now...it's was awful. so many people wanted to destroy us.
13 February at 05:20 ·
Tobi Vail
yes Bill but we won the fight! cheers.
13 February at 05:33 ·
Sarah Titmuss
Hey, just to let you guys know, people do still actively hate at girls in bands. Okay, people don't (always) want to smash my face in, but I see enough idiots on my travels to make me despair at times.
13 February at 05:37 ·
Tobi Vail
of course, we weren't actually super heroes.... the fight continues...but we did our part and we were victorious!
13 February at 05:57 ·
Sarah Titmuss
Of course, and my goodness, it's given people like me enough get-up-and-go to DO something. Thank you, on behalf of all the people you inspired!
13 February at 06:08 ·
Tobi Vail
cheers sarah titmuss xoxoxo
13 February at 15:16 ·
Alexander Nutt
I'd pay good money to hear a conversation between Kim Deal and Mike Watt, even if was about hoover bags (thats not a sonic youth project reference now.. ..or is it?)
14 February at 05:59 ·
(from Facebook)
ReplyDeleteCaren Faisst
what a dick
12 February at 11:43 ·
White Hotel
he's on yr friends list... anything to say Nils?
12 February at 12:04 ·
Everett True
there's a certain irony in Sub Pop complaining about other artists receiving "undue" attention back then, don't you think?
12 February at 19:25 ·
Jason Graham
*SHRUGS SHOULDERS* most males can't rock these days (and probably back then as well). hopefully it was just a wind up to generate some kind of hype, his arguments are confusing at best
12 February at 20:05 ·
Everett True
Nils just sent me a very fair explanation of his take on the whole affair. Hopefully, I'll be posting it shortly.
13 February at 19:42 ·
(from Facebook)
ReplyDeleteWhite Hotel
'Oppression'? Whom was Riot Grrrl oppressing?
14 February at 07:27 ·
RGs were uncool to the dudes because they cared about things, like confronting systematic sexual violence. Too real and icky to turn into the chuckle-worthy ironies the boy world trades in. "cool" means, literally, disconnected, indifferent.
ReplyDeletehi people - i think it's hilarious that this is taking place on everett true's blog, of all places (attention all male journalists with stories about their male editors pooh-poohing their stories about female bands!), but facebook is hardly a place for 'debate' since you can only debate with your friends!
ReplyDeletei really didn't want to step in to this whole conversation, but neither did i mean for my comment to everett to be "MY RESPONSE" so i thought i'd jump in.
i'll post what i wrote candice when she pointed out slim's original post on the BK site, and i'm happy to let this stand as my thoughts about it. i hope candice doesn't mind me posting something that was originally intended just for her.
one thing to frances above about the 'advice giving', that's not what i was referring to, it was more like 'cool, that reminds me of lora logic's solo record' or 'she's like the lenora o'reilly of the 90s'. nothing heavy.
i have no standing beef with RG, quite the opposite in fact - it was an exciting chapter of an exciting time. but we were all very young and very earnest and i'm sure none of us stand by eerything we did and said when we were 22!
fax = email of the early 90s! (re: finding "the fax" - does that waxy curly fax paper even survive 17 years?)
===
here 'tis...
ReplyDelete===
hi candice! why on earth would slim even be thinking about this?! he's kinda wrong, though; it was a general faxed press-release-type sub pop update where, as i would always do, i was riffing about music things unrelated to sub pop, and yammered (i'm sure very carelessly) about how the mountains of attention heaped on riot grrrl seemed to focus on everything BUT music, which i would think/hope bothered the artists as much as onlookers...especially as it just reduced a very personal sort of feminism to a media trend.
i believe my beef on the fax was that there were so many other all-or largely-female bands at the time, whose music was no less gender-focussed in a way, but whose reason for existing - and whose musical 'worth' - was in making MUSIC rather than polemics or promoting a social agenda, yet who were being ignored by the media because they didn't fit into one of the media-driven trends (riot grrl, grunge, etc.). it was as much a gripe with that kind of blind media attention as with BK specifically (at least in my mind, if not made eloquent via fax!). related, too, to my frustration with things like courtney love at the time insisting that her new bass player be a woman - it's like, ok, which is it, do you want the best bass player, or the best WOMAN bass player, and is that really empowering for women? BK had a very savvy push-pull with the media (whether explicitly engineered or not), which left me frustrated that so many incredible female musicians - who didn't have a political agenda, yet were embodying the whole 'personal is political' thing - were completely ignored.
i of course had lots of issues with riot grrrl, mostly as a gay guy drawn to punk rock for its inclusion (hardcore aside) and embrace of 'outsiders', and then being completely brutalized at BK and riot grrrl shows (being led away from the front row since it was reserved for women, wanna-be-riot grrrls yelling things at me in line [i imagine i looked neither gay, 'cool' nor dateable]), not to mention a strangely condescending attitude toward homosexuality (i.e. as fashion, something to 'experiment' with, and/or to have fawning little homoboy mascots). i also knew a lot of women in olympia at that time who weren't involved with music and MANY of whom had horrible experiences at riot grrrl meetings and shows, being excluded/mocked/ignored if they weren't part of 'the scene'.
i also felt the whole thing was a bit hypocritical, this idea that they're so marginalized, "everyone tells us we can't do this" etc...and i'm thinking, wait, you live in OLYMPIA, go to evergreen, have hippie parents that gave you guitars when you were 5, there are about 1000 Women In Punk before you ...and meanwhile i'm listening to soundgarden - purportedly 'my people' - making fag jokes onstage. it contrasted in my mind with someone like sharon cheslow, who certainly always had a feminist approach or agenda, and yet always maintained a very art-centric, non-martyrly approach, a serious education about people that went before her, and an excitement about interacting with _everyone_ who shared her ideas about music/writing/art/society, instead of just people that knew the secret handshake.
of course, later i really came to appreciate BK and riot grrl, still sharing my frustrations with much of the hypocrisy around it, but appreciating that it's OK to use music toward social or political ends, and the exciting kind of galvanization it can inspire.
i wrote slim a few years ago about whether he'd be interested in releasing the holly and the italians albums (long story) and he wrote back saying, "why are you writing me, we are enemies".
people! xoxo nils
I think it's too confusing and ultimately pointless to dissect words and meaning from 17 years ago, but what seems obvious from this exchange above is that intention and interpretation will never be clean exchanges. RG was controversial and a lot of people were put off by it, some with good reason, some without. That's true of any effort that challenges a paradigm. 17 years later what's incredible to me is that most of us who were "riot girls" are still friends and challenging things in our own ways. And those of us who weren't friends then (I didn't know personally know Nils until recently!) are now allies in different ways. Time and maturity can be so generous! Cheers to the future and learning from the past!
ReplyDeletei don't know you, nils, and normally i wouldn't thrust myself into a debate about something that happened 17 years ago, but there are a couple of points about this that seem important to mention that no one has really brought up. 1) you, as a publicist for Sub Pop, were in a position of power -- you were a gatekeeper for music journalists, allowing them access (or not) to bands on SP. 2) in the course of your job, you felt free to "riff" or "yammer" about "music things unrelated to Sub Pop" to those same music journalists. in a "Sub Pop update". and 3) you were encouraging these journalists to ignore/see through/question the BIGGEST BAND ON A RIVAL LABEL. maybe you never took KRS seriously as a rival, maybe the label didn't merit your notice, but that doesn't change the fact that slim spent real money promoting this band and helping them do things like tour the UK, and you were actively undermining his business, as well as condemning and undermining a genre and scene that you have now come to recognize as valuable. it's disingenuous of you to not understand why slim would see you as an enemy, after that kind of behavior. all social justice and personal issues aside, it's your business practices that i'd condemn, since i'd feel the same way if someone did that to me today!
ReplyDeleteRG and feminism isn't the only issue here - in the early '90s there was a DIY sorority feeling amongst indie labels - it was us against the world. we didn't shit on each other, we saw major labels as the enemy not each other. In trying to undermine the indie label down the road, who was working in much the same regional and musical territory and as Jerry mentions, sometimes trying to sign the same bands, Nels broke an unstated but very real code of conduct. I passionately loved the people in the bands i worked with, and Nels was trying to harm them, for petty reasons, from his position of influence. i have no problem confirming that as a result, he is my enemy until he admits he was wrong.
ReplyDeleteI sent a lot of faxes. There was no email then, and the time difference between Seattle and London made phone calls difficult. I had a total of TWO email addresses in the UK - Melody Maker and NME. Sometimes the faxes would say “Ha Ha”, taped into a loop, and sent after-hours, so the fax paper would run out (also a great way to use Sub Pop’s business hours and long-distance).
ReplyDeleteI don’t actually agree that every person at every indie label in the early 90s had an obligation to speak well of every band on every other indie label. If nothing else, it strains credibility (“I think all the indie bands in the US now are all so awesome!”). It was important for me to have genuine relationships with journalists, not just to be a parrot for indie-community “party lines”. You should see what I wrote about some of the bands ON Sub Pop!
However, I do agree that there were myriad other ways that I could have expressed my feelings about BK without it coming as a flippant printed missive from Sub Pop.
I find it interesting to apologize to a person who was always so unpleasant to me (not to mention meeting him 10 times pre-fax and him still calling me “Nels”), and about not having solidarity with a band at whose shows I had the pleasure of being called “rapist” and spat on (not that it’s the band members’ fault or doing), but so be it:
I apologize for a fax I sent to two people in 1993, while in the capacity of Sub Pop employee, criticizing a band on a sister indie label.
Nils
(PS: Along vaguely similar lines to us all having had an obligation to support each other, I actually always thought the “anyone can start a band” thing was a bad idea [see “Calvin Johnson Has Ruined Music...” chapter 6, page 231]. RGs were fantastic advocates for other women in music, but at the same time, the BK lists of bands that Tobi mentioned above, for example, always bugged me ‘cause half of them weren’t any good, or only had one good record, and judging bands solely on gender seemed intrinsically wrong. There was also a vibe that female-centric musicians without an explicitly feminist agenda didn’t “count” as much, but I never felt someone like Kelly Johnson or Nina Canal were less feminist because they were essentially instrumentalists & didn’t cheerlead. The focus on agenda & community over musical talent seemed regressive to me - I hated when, with Autoclave & later Helium, Mary Timony was a “rad chick” instead of a brilliant, inventive guitarist that attacked rock playing with jazz knowledge while staying heavy & not getting indulgent. But then again, I wasn’t a young girl that needed a community and role models! Of course, BK proved to be quite PROgressive, in the sense of introducing a sense of agitation and possibility to a self-congratulatory indie scene. But the gist of my fax I’m sure was just my thought at the time that writers should write about the BEST bands, not the ones that are women or who mean well or who fit a media trend, though I recognize now that while media efforts to cover RG were incredibly clumsy, those efforts weren’t in themselves misguided.)
nils, thanks for your apology. i don't remember meeting you, before the fax, or after. truly sorry if i was unpleasant, and sorry for each and every time i was unpleasant prior to the fax. i mean that sincerely.
ReplyDeletei find it hard to believe that you really think community and agenda is not a legitimate part of what makes some bands great. you have been at this way too long to really believe that. there is no way you are naive enough to think that rock and roll is a fine art that is to be judged solely on "musical talent." you have trumpeted a zillion bands with merely adequate musical chops and a talented presentation or "schtick." ("touch me i'm sick" anyone?) the whole point of rock and roll is that it is accessible - original songs generally written by the same person singing them, played by small combos on easy to learn, relatively affordable instruments - unlike the fine art of the symphony or what have you. it is common, "low," popular expression - pop art not fine art - and the ideas expressed and the method/style of presentation have always been an important factor for many great bands who may or may not have had "musical talent." there are only so many ways you can go 1-4-5-and-maybe-2 and supposedly still be about virtuosity rather than presentation. i refuse to believe that you would have agitated against the sex pistols on the basis that sid couldn't really play bass. it's a sophisticated argument you are using, but it doesn't really hold up - there is no way that i believe that every record in your collection is there for "musical talent" and nothing more. it is clear that your problem wasn't with the plain existence of an agenda, your problem was specifically with a feminist agenda. which is sad, but common. my objection was to the use of your position as sub pop publicist to lobby against press coverage for KRS bands as some kind of anti-publicist. your lame opinions about social issues are your own problem.
but perhaps more importantly, your explanation hinges on the idea that bikini kill and huggy bear were such terrible bands that you needed to write a fax to spread the news. do you have a tin ear? you are missing out on two of the greatest bands of the 90s, or any time. and i stand by that even if you discount "community and agenda" and claim that "musical talent" is paramount.
Ahahahahhahahahaha.....
ReplyDeleteskin yard, tad, cat butt, fluid, soundgarden, gas huffer
all that talent could fit on the head of pin and still leave room for a couple of angels.
what a silly fight. does anyone think that nils' fucking fatuous fax had any measurable negative impact or that us ladies needed everett to act as champion for us with the big boss men at the english rags...these were weekly mags. good bands, bad bands...what they needed were new bands. to build up. to tear down. RG was hostile. As was HC. Both were interesting and compelling movements socially and musically. And they both produced a handful of breathtakingly good bands and a shitload of band ones. ¡Viva la liberacíon!
RG Rebellion
ReplyDeletewhat does star bellied boy mean, i'm not so sure... i need help
ReplyDelete(from Facebook)
ReplyDeleteGillian Gaar
Thanks Everett! Very interesting! FYI, I believe Nils was identified as pres of the Nirvana fan in the R Stone's cover story on the band, so that's where that one started.
22 February at 03:48 ·
Everett True
Ah. I knew I got it from somewhere. Well, I guess he's fully within his rights to deny it (and I certainly wasn't aware of it at the time)!!!
22 February at 03:53 ·
(from Facebook)
ReplyDeleteMichael Fantham
I just sat and read the whole thing - this is incredibly fascinating, and insightful. Thanks to Everett, Tobi, et. al.
22 February at 08:57 ·